Why Don't You Just Tell Me I'm Not Important and Get It Over With

While I was getting loaded on half a glass of free wine and swiping Bliss products from the W hotel, my husband was closing on our new house. Thankfully, I had very little to do with the process except fax various W-9s, move money between bank accounts, and have the nervous stomach shits.

Sorry Flight 4891 from Philly to Cincinnati.

I won't get into the annoying issues of moving, not only because they've been way more interestingly described in the last few months by my fellow bloggers, but also because it seems droll for me to complain about moving when all I've wanted to do is move in the first place.

But getting the mortgage? That I can bitch about.

We're in a weird financial situation in that my husband's salary is difficult to quantify. While he does have a base salary that is scarily way less than anything you'd want to pay someone for flying humans around in the air, he can also make more by doing more trips.

But that doesn't translate so well to a mortgage broker.

And so, I had to offer a few pay stubs and letters of income verification to show that I was indeed making some money and "contributing to the household."

That last statement in and of itself sounds ridiculous to me, but that's why I let the husband deal with shit like that. There's just no time for me to get into a philosophical discussion with a mortgage broker about the contribution of mothers to their households and how that translates monetarily.

Better to leave me at home to get into a philosophical discussion with the blogosphere.

So then I received word that I was being taken off the mortgage application because I'm a "negative." According to our taxes last year, I didn't make any money thanks to several deductions, and so, I'm a negative.

Not worthy, or worthwhile or really, working.

Truth be told, I'm more of a work-at-home-mother than stay-at-home-mother, so I can't even imagine the position many moms who don't have any actual income would be put in.

What's below negative? Hell?

And while I get the legalese mumbo-jumbo financial bullshit, it still pisses me off that I work my ass off and I am still considered to be a negative and therefore not worthy to be on my own mortgage.

And thus the issue of the value of our work as mothers is brought to the forefront yet again.

Let me reiterate that while I do not expect to ever make the $129,567.02 or whatever we're supposed to be paid (at least not from my splentastic cooking and housework), I do feel it's time for us to strive for value in terms of respect, dignity, and recognition. Regardless of how much money I make, I most certainly contribute positively to my family, my community, and my country.

But yet, that's seen as a negative.

Make sure to leave your hard working wife and mother of your children off your mortgage because you won't get approved with her on there.

So let me ask you, society. What are you going to do without mothers? Who the fuck is going to raise your kids?

Perhaps a shift in societal ideals is impossible. Money is still power in many respects, and the value of experience pays little in the face of a capitalistic society.

But how can we, the mothers with a voice, make a negative into a positive, and kick a few asses along the way?

Check out this fantastic post on rights for ALL caregivers.

Comments

[Gina]

Oh, and what I forgot to mention in my comment was that what's going on is indicative of the mortgage brokers... that's why I was hoping you got a good one. I don't think it was very wise for your broker to advise you to stay off the loan, and as Senator Clinton says, the mortgage brokers don't work for the consumer, they work for their commissions. What they're doing to you is going to hurt yours and your husband's credit profiles.

[Gina]

Here's more info on the "predatory lending" I mentioned last week. There's a great video there too.

Clinton proposes mortgage market crackdown
Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton on Tuesday called for penalties against mortgage brokers who engage in predatory lending and a $1 billion federal fund to help homeowners avoid foreclosure.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20162363/from/ET/

[Nicole/wksocmom]

Well, my husband actually had to be taken off of ours as well for refinancing, and we're not even bothering with his salary to qualify for our new house. He's probably a negative as he doesn't have a regular paycheck or earning history in this job. He's a soccer coach, and I will say he probably contributes more to the community, (though not necessarily to raising the kids :) I don't think that's a sense of your worth, for sure, just financial stuff. We put him back on ownership of the house as soon as we can.

[badgermama]

I would refinance if you can, and get yourself on that mortgage. You need it to build your own credit history and solidity. I mean fingers crossed against death and divorce, but they happen, and as women we need to take control of our financial lives and assert our worth... and build our worth.

Peace out! Good luck with the house!

- Liz

[metro mama]

That's such fucking bullshit.

I'm glad we're speaking up. We need to speak louder.

[Her Bad Mother]

I'm not on our mortgage, for the same reasons. BUT (at least here in Canada) that doesn't translate into 'no claim on the property.' We own it together, fiddy-fiddy.

But that whole thing about being a negative, or even a nought, in the calculation of worth? You're right that it's complete and total utter bullshit. Stinky bullshit.

How do we stamp out the stink?

[BOSSY]

Bossy will answer your self-worth questions and more just as soon as she climbs out from under the covers.

[Liz]

i've read this from an astonishing number of work- and stay-at-home mothers.
yes, society: please explain.

[AdventureDad]

Society is so biased it's scary. You need to experience some Swedish standards on gender equality. The women don't take care of the kids here, it's done together. Tons of fathers drop and pick up their kids rom day care each day and fathers stand for about 40% of child related "work". I know it's not 50% but we're getting there.

We do get 480 paid days of parental leave per child which most families split between husband and wife. Not equally, breastfeeding is tough for men, but men do take substantial time off work to take care of their litle one while the wife heads back to work.

I took 5 monhts of with our son and I'm currently taking 6 months off to be with our daughter. This is just a tiny example of how far this country have come on gender equality.

I'm a man but can clearly see that everything works much better if things are more equal and fair. It's a shame more people, especially women, nerver get to experience this. It's a real pleasure seeing it in action

Sorry about the long comment

AD

[the weirdgirl]

I know this is going to sound horribly anti-feminist... but the older I get, the more I have first hand experience of the financial inequities between the sexes, the more I understand women who file for alimony... it's back pay!

[Leah]

Due to various weird financial things, we had a bunch of goofy stuff going on with our mortgage and title and who could sign what and where too. Add to it all that my SO and I aren't married and all hell breaks loose. The funniest thing, though, is that now he's receiving all kinds of junk mail with his first name and MY last name on it. HA!

[Paula]

A-fuckin-men.

[jaelithe]

What pissed me off especially about the whole mortgage-getting, home-buying process was that even though my name wound up being on everything, it was always second, below my husband's name. That's the way the paperwork was printed up by every single business and agency involved in the process of buying my home. And every time we had to sign something, it was offered to him first, almost as though my signature were an afterthought. And every time we get correspondence having to do with our mortgage, it comes in my husband's name.

Same deal with the car (which is also in both our names).

Grrr.

I'm gonna turn a negative into a positive right now, though (as previous posters have as well), by pointing out that you now own half of a home, and none of the debt used to buy it. Now THAT is a pretty place to be ;)

[jeanie]

Its not just mortgages and loans. The work that parents do as parents is not valued EVEN IF you have to pay for it.

I had to submit a budget for some government carp about a freelance project, and as hours are flexible but can be high or low due to demand, I put on the budget about childcare allowances - well, apparently that won't be one of my major expenses because they don't recognise it as being an expense.

Hello? I suppose she is 7. She can look after herself after school now. (Over my mortified remains).

[jen]

You know, when you figure out how to make moms truly valued, let me know and I'll do it. Damn straight, who's gonna raise the kids? Who's gonna do the unpaid, but necessary, volunteer work? That unsexy, unpaid, necessary work that has to be done and we do it? I do mind not bringing in a paycheck as a SAHM, because I made that decision. I do mind being treated as a second-class citizen, though. I work damned hard for no pay and intangible benefits.

[JayMonster]

First for Sharon and her doctor bill fiasco... I am not sure WHEN this happened, but since the time HIPAA went into effect, it is not only wrong it is ILLEGAL!

Now as for the mortgage. Not to be too much of a wiseass, but this is not solely a "work at home MOMS" issue. I am self-employed as a computer consultant. I make a good living. A couple of years back when we refinanced our home, because my corporation was under 5 years old, and I did not have a "paycheck" just invoices which were month to month, I was considered a "negative" even though at the time my billings had me earning twice what my wife was making. But since she had a "consistent salary" she was deemed a positive, and me a negative.

Suffice it to say that these people are just weird when it comes to anything "out of their version of normal" regardless of what sex you are.

[Hyphen Mama]

That reminds me of another similar story. I have a checking account that I've had since high school--EONS before I even met my husband. My name and my mother's names are on the account. Recently MY HUSBAND received a letter from the bank, referencing that account, asking if he'd like a debit card for that account. I was so infuriated about it, I wanted to call and close the account. Hey... I just might do that tomorrow.

My point? I guess I'm completely shocked that in this day and age somehow wives are still deemed as "dependents" of their husbands by the mainstream businesses.

[Sharon]

Hmmmmm...this is not the same, but a related issue. When I found out I was pregnant, my HUSBAND received the bill for the doctor visit. It was MY insurance, in MY name, and they sent the bill to my husband...it was completely unrelated, other than the fact that he was the "man". I couldn't believe it. I confronted them on it and they looked at me like I was insane on hormones> I might have been, but it was still wrong. Not to mention the fact that some women wouldn't want their husband to know. I didn't mind him knowing, it was just the audacity of the thing!

[Anita]

I'm not on our mortgage either. But that was for our own interest. I had debt that we didn't want to show up. lol. However, my credit score is much higher than my husbands and I am a SAHM. That really bruises his pride.

I am insulted for you that someone would actually have the audacity to call you a 'negative.' For what it's worth, everyone is right about you getting yourself on the title. THAT is a necessity to keep you and the kids protected. We don't want to talk about death or divorce, but they happen all the time.

[HMFT]

Amen, sistahfriend.

[Hyphen Mama]

So many things making my blood boil. Is this the year 2007?

It's so unfortunate that you weren't in a position to tell that mortgage broker to stuff their loan. It would have been great to not be in a short time constraint and have all the time you needed to find a woman owned brokerage more interested in empowering women.

That's it! We'll create our own lending institution that empowers women. We'll go global! We'll breast feed on flights. Nobody will mess with us!

And by the way... I, too, believe that people who fly humans through the air should be making more than the McDonald's employees in Concourse A.

Maybe you could casually mention in your post who this lender is....so others won't be tempted to use them.

[Stimey]

I feel that even if they don't bring in a single penny from an outside source, SAHMs contribute financially just as much as if they brought home a paycheck every week. That said, I struggled for years to come to terms with that myself, which is a big part of the reason that I now work at home and get that paycheck.

It sucks that for so many of us our value--even to ourselves--is based on the number on a check. And it's outrageous that you could be considered "a negative" just because you're at home.

[jen]

we've got to mobilize. we've got to claim our worth. we've got to stand shoulder to shoulder and tell the bastards we are done.

i just don't know any other way.

[Kari]

Oh, boy. Get yourself a new mortgage broker. For all the reasons already mentioned, it is time for some honest credit-saving action.

And PS: I signed the offers, did most of the paperwork, and so forth - but all the documents were mailed just to my husband's name.

His credit score (which was once lower than mine) is now well above. So I suspect that my "decreased earning potential" had an impact on my credit even though I was on the mortgage.

[Occidental Girl]

I don't know how to make everyone value women and mothers more. Wait a few more decades for the comprehensive societal outlook to shift? Stop having babies until the government realizes how valuable that little contribution is? (Like what happened in Japan recently.)

We are a long way from the 50's, but there is still a long way to go...

[Sugared Harpy]

The scary part of all of this is that as a woman who gets taken off of or was never on any of these things, mortgage, car, etc...is that your credit and financial outlook suffers.

Take it from a recently divorced woman. I had to prove everything and I WAS working outside the home a lot of those years. Even when I got into my own rental house, I had to pay deposits on all the utilities because they said I hadn't had my name on a bill in ten years so I was a liability. Wanna add up those hundreds I didn't have?

It just feels like another way that women are quietly exploited. You support his work, YOU work, and it still counts as a "negative."

[LawyerMama]

Amy - I pay $60/day for 2 kids and that's about half what I was paying in the D.C. area. Have a heart attack now.

Kristin - This is one of my pet peeves. And Julie hit the nail on the head. You should be on the mortgage to protect you and your credit rating. I have heard of some situations where a couple wouldn't be approved for a mortgage with both on the mortgage. For example, where a dear friend of mine had just finished law school with $100k in student loans, but was doing temp work and not bringing in a large income to offset it, despite her good credit score. But other than that? I can't imagine it. Stupid mortgage company.

My hubs is a sweetie because, when I insisted on being first on the mortgage, he didn't bat an eye. It doesn't really matter but it just annoys me that the man's income is always looked at first and his name is always listed first. Ahhhhhhh!

[creative-type dad]

This makes me angry.

In this day and age a mom (or dad) can't be on their own home mortgage because it's a "negative?!" What kind of backwards thinking is that!

Why is this not getting more play in the news or in politics?

[Dawn - Coming to a Nursery Near You]

The only value we, as stay at home or even work at home mothers is the dividends that pay off (or not) in 20 years. The kids. The credit card companies, the mortgage companies, the banks - none of them give a shit about us unless we're in default.

[Erika]

nope, not allowed to be on the mortgage here either...apparently I don't exist as far as income goes.

never mind that great working mom friends of mine pay $600 a month for 16 days childcare...my assessed value is sweet 0

Of course, I *do* spend my days sitting on the couch eating bonbons, and ordering my kids to change the channels on the tv, so what do I expect, really?

humph.

[mothergoosemouse]

Oh! And you need to be on the mortgage in order to keep building on your credit history and credit score. It's not just a matter of equality, but financial responsibility.

[mothergoosemouse]

I will send this to Kyle for his input as a mortgage loan officer - one of the very few honest ones out there.

In the meantime, regardless of your income or supposed lack thereof, I see no reason why your name would not be on the mortgage. And whether you have quantifiable income or not, your credit score is most certainly a positive. When we moved out here, I did not have any income, but I had one heck of a credit score. My name's on the mortgage, and your name should be on yours too.

[mandy]

hmmm...to turn that negative upside down. Get on the deed, not the mortgage. :)

[motherbumper]

This is the sad truth for me and most days I can't believe it's true. I thought this was the stuff of recent past and that we were over this shit. But no, now here I am being treated as a *shudder* second class citizen in the eyes of our capitalistic-fuelled society. So yes, what are we going to do? We've got a powerful voice, now we just need to organize and mobilize. I'm in.

[Kelly]

Home buying sucks-- Anyway, it was great meeting you at Blogher. Still looking into the "Semen Face Mask" thing, and will keep you posted!
Best,
Kelly (Mother Magnetism)

[Heather]

Change of ideals is never impossible.

Too bad we can't do something like nurse-ins. But what would stay at home moms do to get recognized? Stage a stay in the store while my kids run around and not spend any money?

yeah, I got nothing up m sleeve that would revolutionize societal ideals about moms, but I will keep the mental wheels a rollin'.

[Mom101]

ARGH this stuff makes me nuts, as you know.

If you look at Linda Richmond's pov that so-called educated women should be out bringing home the bacon, then only so-called uneducated women are home raising children.

I'm shocked that this is the POV of the mortgage people. I guess I always assumed that marriage had certain benefits and GETTING ON THE MORTGAGE was one of them.

[Kelly]

I'm so ready for a throw down, feeling unappreciated in just about every avenue of life. Let's march, shall we?

[jennifer]

Even though it isn't technically legal to do so, the income of men is typically weighted heavier in these situations.

I was a single mom for 11 years and struggled to make ends meet, build my credit, etc. It was only after I married and was added to some of his accounts (which were maxed out, I might add) that my FICO went up to be desirable.

Currently, our FICO scores are the same but he is the one that gets the solicitations for low interest credit cards, loans, etc. I get the 'bend over here it comes' solicitations with outrageous annual fees, etc.

Let's not even get started on salaries...

[Gina]

Umm.. this doesn't make any sense to me. My aunt doesn't work, has zero income, yet she's been on BOTH the mortgages with her husband. I wonder if it differs by state, but in IL it looks far better to have two people on a mortgage because it spreads out the Debt/Income ratio, even when the other person doesn't have any income. I know all too much about mortgage loans these days because of the last two years we've spent buying/selling/buying a house.

I hope you got good advice on your mortgage... mortgage brokers themselves are total peices of shit. Congress is trying to pass laws to limit their abilities because of their shady practices and "predatory lending" practices. We got totally screwed on our first loan BECAUSE they told my husband not to put my name on it. All the debt fell in his name and made it impossible to qualify for a refinance. Ughgh, that's a horror story in itself.

[David Wescott]

wow. that really sucks.

while you may not be on the mortgage, make sure your name is on the title. THAT'S the important one, and while I don't know Georgia law, in many (perhaps all) states a spouse can still get on the title even if you're not on the mortgage.

i realize this doesn't necessarily address the broader societal issues, but it's YOUR house.

[Lia]

Yeah - and for all the things we really do everyday when we are not having "wine in the park while the toddlers play" and "pedicures" I think we come cheap!
Don't get me started on the tyranny of banks and why I think we need to start a "not for profit" one.

[Woman with Kids]

How incrediably frustrating!

Although, Amy, as a single mother, it's not that I'm looking to pay the cheapest amount possible for childcare, it's that I simply can't afford any more than that. Just another point of view...

[Karen Rani]

I had to laugh at the end of your figure ($0.02) because we're constantly giving our two cents.

Aside from that: AMEN! Although last year was the first where we had to hire an accountant because all my endevours have finally grown up enough to warrant a modest income in the eyes of bureaucrats. I'm so proud of that.

/sarcasm

[K&D]

It's the opposite in our household. Mortgage loan is in my name only. Both car loans are in my name too. Primarily this is because I'm the larger wage-earner, but also because it affords us more opportunities. We plan to buy an investment property at some point in the future and looking at dh's credit report, he does not owe anything substantial. So he could qualify for the new property is his own name without getting in discussions about debt ratios.
Dh is on the deed to the house, though, so if something happens he will be joint tenant in common (I *think* that's the term).

[Amy]

I also get pissed off at how little people are willing to pay for childcare. I think that shows how much caring for children is devalued in our society. I had someone ask me to babysit their child two days a week for the summer for ten dollars a day.

It would cost me more than that to take the kid all summer. Ten dollars a day? Are you kidding me?

(This is beside the fact that I am a stay-at-home mom, not a babysitter.)

But that's really not that much below the running rate in my area. I know people who pay $15 a day for daycare, and that's considered pretty normal around here. That's less than $2 an hour. What kind of childcare person are you going to be able to hire for $2 an hour?

I pay my teenage babysitter $6 an hour, and she doesn't even have a family to support!

[Miguelina (AKA Reluctant Housewife)]

Wait...I don't make a penny and I'm on the mortgage (because I don't want to disappear off the face of the planet, credit wise).

Are marriage property laws different in each state? Someone please explain.

[TB]

Yeah, I know exactly what this feels like. Although I worked this year, part time, when it came to purchasing our house this spring, it was Jeff's income that got us our mortgage. He insisted that my name be on all the paperwork, but that was only a formality really. Going from full time corporate work to a mom with no real paycheck to speak of really makes you take a look at how women and mothers are valued in our society and how that directly ties into our self worth.

[Lady M]

This really pisses me off. "Who the F* is going to raise their kids" indeed.

[Vicky]

I fear I'll be a negative too come tax season. The system is rife with archaic structures on both sides of the globe. Europe doesn't fare so hot either in this situation. Two income households bare more burden than single incomes over there. I know I'll be a major tax write off if I play my cards right but I still feel like less of a woman when I'm always looked at as a SAHM despite working my ass off just as much as my husband. Think of it this way- at least you weren't left off the mortgage due to having too much credit card debt. That happened to me in our first house. It was downright shaming.

[Dana]

I think that's crap. You can't be on the mortgage because you have WAHM status?

Doesn't sound like Georgia has a marital property law like fucking Wisconsin?

Doesn't matter what kind of loan I get or apply for, my husband is AUTOMATICALLY added to it and vice-versa. So if one of us takes out a loan to go gambling and loses everything, the other has to pay for it too.

Back to the point though, even if you didn't have income coming in -- you're still the glue that holds the family together. Rasing children is hard work and mothers are under appreciated every day.

After my husband spent four days alone with Dawson while I was at BlogHer, I would have thought he'd have a greater appreciation for what I do (and I work outside the home, too). But he simply made it sound like it was a piece of cake and that I was exaggerating the difficutly. Fuck that! If it was so easy, why did my parents take him over night on Friday?

I just wish society had a different frame of mind about parenthood -- no wait, motherhood, because they're fucking it up for us moms.

[Christina]

I was working full time when we got our mortgage, so I'm on it of course. At the time, Aaron did not have a job (just finished school), but the mortgage person never considered leaving him off the mortgage. My name is on it first, though.

The crazy part? We get refinancing offers all the time, and half of them are addressed to Aaron and ONLY Aaron! My name is first on the mortgage, but apparently I don't matter. I have a long list of companies I will never do business with because of this.

Of course, now that I'm moving to be a work-at-home mom, I'm sure I will matter even less to businesses. How do we send a message that we matter? I'm not sure, but I'm in with anyone who thinks of something good. Often moms are the ones who control the household money (even if they do or don't make it), but apparently our purchasing power doesn't scare them.

[Cheryl]

I felt kind of sneaky in January when we were closing on our house. I knew damn well that I would be quitting my job before the end of the year. I'm a few weeks away from joining the ranks of the stay-at-home mothers, and we're looking into a home equity loan. Will I acknowledge to the bank lady next week that I've already given my notice? Eh. Maybe not. Why muddy up our chances?

I don't blame you for feeling second place in all of this. Being called a negative is mean and completely out of line.

[Wendy]

I am confused. I was an asset when buying our house, because my credit score went well with my husband's income. I havent had an outside job or brought money to the household in 7 years.

All I can say is, if you would like to know your monetary value make sure to have life insurance on yourself. Just think all the hired help that would be needed if, God forbid, you were not there to do all the things you do. We are in talks, now, to up my life insurance.

I know this has nothing to do with the philosophical aspect, but really it is like beating your head against the wall. My husband knows my value, because I made sure of that. It is never his money. It is our money. He works. I work. We just have different jobs and equally contribute to our household, in different ways. I have no problem with correcting anyone, anyway when it comes up where their face drops and they run away before I open my face and blow fire at them.

[fidget]

When purchasing a house here, my fair foreign friend got to be on their mortgage. She actually draws a stipend from Germany for BEING a stay at home mom

[kgirl]

I made more money than my husband for years - not a substantial amount more, but on paper, I was the higher earner. Thanks to a catch-up raise, that has recently changed, and the huz is now marginally 'richer' than I. (and that is a seriously relative term)

The point? You have no idea how many phone calls he's gotten from the banks and credit companies willing to up his credit limits, give him new cards, etc. We don't necessarily want any of it, but know how many of those calls I have ever gotten?

Zero.

Which is how much of my business I will give those companies in the future.

And that's a stronger message than any strongly-worded letter I could ever write.

[M&Co.]

But look at the up side. If you decide to say, "screw it, I'm outta here!" YOU won't owe that mortgage, he will. I've got a friend, and they've put his wife on none of the liabilities, so if something happens to him, she owes nobody nothing. Now she's on the deed to the house and the car is hers as well but she doesn't OWE anything. A good position to be in, I'd think.

[canape]

I'm with you. Not on the mortgage. Not on the cars. Not even on the piano loan, and it's my piano.

It's up to my husband to remind me that I'm valuable. Which lucky for me, he does.

Besides, as a musician, I'm a hell of a tax write off. Concert tickets? Deduction. New guitar? Deduction. SUV to haul my gear to shows? Deduction.

He is sweet enough to give me credit for the money he doesn't end up having to give to the gov't because of me being a WAHM.