All is Well Until You Screw Them Up

**Edited. Thanks to the bloggers who called in and shared their stories. You can hear the show by clicking on the media player at the top right of my blog. And feel free to continue to share your stories, questions, and comments here.

Congrats to Susanna, Courtney, Malky, Jennifer, Elizabeth, Kristie, Tiffany, Erika, Kivey, & Sara. You'll all be getting copies of this book!

I'm fairly certain that if I can at least make it out of Casa de Inlaws, I have a decent chance of raising a fairly well adjusted child. I know life happens, as does shit, but for the most part, I think I'm a pretty decent parent.

Of course, so did my dad. In fact, he vowed to be a better parent than his father was to him. But then he started drinking and the vow he made got lost in his abusive tendencies.

I always hoped and believed that my father would one day come around and apologize for being so terribly awful. It was the hopeful daughter in me that knew he could never leave things as they were. But that was not the case. I had to put my foot down and finally decide that even if there was an apology or an outstretched hand, it would not be enough to make up for all the years of hurt.

Our business was terribly unfinished. My hopes of a happy ending dashed. And since he died in 1998, I've struggled (some days worse than others) to figure out what the hell happened, and mostly, how to make damn sure it would never ever happen to me and my kids.

I'm not the only generation in my family that has dealt with parental estrangment. My mother doesn't speak to her parents, and thus I don't speak with my grandparents. I respect her decision and clearly she has every reason not to speak with them, however, I often wonder if a resolution would ever be possible, and if, in her case, it might be cultural. 

So, tonight I'll be talking with Karen Rani formerly of Troll Baby now Vodkarella about her own experiences of being "Motherless" or really, parenting without an involved parent of her own. And I'll also be talking with author Dr. Joshua Coleman about his book "When Parents Hurt." He offers compassionate strategies when parents and their grown children don't get along, as well as other helpful tidbits such as learning how you were parenting affects how you parent, learning how to not kill parent your teenager, and a bazillion other things that you'll just have to get the book to find out.

Clearly, this book is not just for parents with troubling relationships, it's for ones who don't want to have one with their kids when they get older. Best to start early not screwing them up, right?

You can listen live from 9-10pm EST, and download later (if you missed it) via iTunes (click that nifty button up there in my right sidebar).

As always, I'd love for you to call in (646) 915-8634 and share your own stories, particularly if you're estranged or in difficult relationships with your own parents. What's it like to be a parent without an active healthy parent yourself? Do you see a relationship between you and your parents in the future? How does this affect your own children? How does the way you were parenting (good, bad, or ugly) affect how you parent your own children?

Can I use the word parent anymore times in a sentence? (ha)

I'll be giving away 10 free copies of Dr. Coleman's book to callers as well as folks who email me a question (or leave a comment -- if more than 10 leave a comment, I'll pick 10 winners at random). If you're looking for some reviews of the book, click here.   

And make sure to check out my exciting podcast special, including an appearance from everyone's favorite sex columnist for parents Live at BlogherCon!

Comments

[Taryntula]

I so enjoyed this show. I have had a life long struggle with my relationship with my mother. We had not spoken for 2 years (she last saw my son when he was only months old) until a death in the family a month ago. Hearing your show and what the Dr. had to say, I was moved to try to repair the damage (also something that I have continued to do my whole life) for the sake of my son.
Thank you so much for all the insight provided. I think that I am going to buy this book for my mother. Wish me luck!!

[radmama]

I'm sorry I missed this. I have similar issues with my father, who is now suffering from a terminal illness. This has increased my mental struggle over what to do.

[Lady M]

I remember your powerful post about your dad. You're strong lady.

[David Wescott]

easily your best - and most important - show yet. Look at the wonderful thing you've done here, Kristen. So many people sharing so many important stories. Your compassion and your leadership shine through on this one. such a thoughtful and informative show. really, really wonderful.

BRAVISIMA!!!!!!!!

[Christina]

My father has screwed me up, too. My parents were divorced when I was a baby and my dad barely used his visitation - Christmas, Easter, birthday was about it. But then when he saw me he expected me to respect him and he tried to control me and push his racist and sexist views on me.

As a teen, we got into a lot of fights, because he'd try to tell me my mom brainwashed me against him and tried to make me believe she was a horrible person. She never said a bad thing about him.

He flipped out when I asked my mom to walk me down the aisle at my wedding. He disowned me at that point and tried to encourage his side of the family to not attend the wedding. They came anyway, thank goodness. Things were more peaceful without hearing from him.

A year and a half later, I had my first daughter, and out of nowhere he showed up at the hospital, acting like nothing had happened and expecting to be an active grandparent. I was stunned, but didn't know what to say.

Now he's in our lives and wanting to be more involved as a grandparent, but I still am hesitant to do more than the occasional get-together. I don't trust him alone with my kids. But I also don't want to get into a long fight if I tell him how I feel, since he'll turn it all around to be my fault.

He's been a lot nicer lately, but I don't know if people can really change that much. And I still have a lot of emotional scars from the verbal abuse I endured when I was younger.

[Karen]

FYI - Motherless is now officially closed. The posts have been moved here: http://www.vodkarella.com/category/parentless/

Anyone looking to submit their story, anonymous or otherwise, can email me at karenrani@gmail.com.

I think we have opened up a can of worms that I've had sitting on the stove a long time (a year, actually, at Motherless!)

Thanks for calling attention to an important topic and to your readers/listeners for being so incredibly forthcoming, honest and raw about their stories. All of them are important and deserve that all-valuable validation we spoke of.

Mucho thanks for having me on the show tonight as well. It was a great pleasure!
Karen

[Dr Joshua Coleman]

Hi Erika

I’m sorry to hear what you’ve been through. It was courageous of you to be able to run away at 16. The fact that your parents refer to you as the “handicapped daughter” is just more abuse.

There’s a saying by the pediatrician/analyst Donald Winnicott that goes, “A child would rather be a sinner in a world ruled by God, than a saint in a world ruled by the devil.” In other words, children work hard to believe their parents and assume that their parents are right about the cruel things that they say or do because the world feels like a far more terrifying, unpredictable place if they could see their parents for who they are.

It’s understandable that you still want their love but I would probably encourage you to work to grieve that you didn’t get what you deserved as a child, and will likely never get from them as an adult. Some parents do enough work on themselves so that they’re a safer bet if the adult child wants a closer relationship. That was the reason that I wrote When Parents Hurt-to show parents how to heal the rift with their adult children and to try to repair whatever damage was done. But the fact that your parents refer to you as “handicapped” without any apparent attempt to take responsibility for all of the ways they hurt you shows me that they’re not a good risk.

[Chris]

Um, yes please pick me. Just kidding or not. My mother was an alcholic and I basically raised myself and did a damn fine job too. My kids are not scarred and they turned out pretty good. Needless to say I don't drink (much) wine doesn't count, right? And I did parent my kids, more than what I had. Love your blog!

[Dr Joshua Coleman]

Dear Going Crazy,

Your parents really don't sound like they have much ability to hear things from your perspective. They sounds incredibly fragile and get defensive and hostile if you try to talk with them. I doubt that there's a lot that you can do to change that. Unfortunately, barring family therapy, it's hard to change that in one's parents. You may have to accept that your relationship with them will have to be less deep and honest than you'd like it to be.

[Dr Joshua Coleman]

Hi Kivey,

Your in-laws sound like real assholes. Not exactly a stunning way to earn your son's love, let alone your daughter-in-laws'. I think setting limits on that kind of outrageous behavior is completely appropriate on your parts.

[Dr Joshua Coleman]

Hi Tiffany,

I think that you raise a good question - when is enough enough? From my vantage point, you've experienced enough and then some. I don' think you should spend ANY more time around your stepfather. He sounds incredibly destructive. It sounds like you'd like to have a relationship with your mother but that doesn't mean you have to accept them as a package deal. How about saying to her, "Mom, I love you, but I can't stand how my stepfather treats you and my husband and I don't want to be around it any more. If you want to have a relationship with me, it can't include him. It's just way too destructive and it's bad modeling for my children." Setting limits in this way with your mother is actually being a good role for her that there are limits and consequences to staying with abusive people.

[kivey]

I am dealing with this with my husband's family. We have been together for 17 years, married for 8, and have a beautiful 2 year old boy. I have always had problems with his mother. I have never been good enough for her son. Things finally came to a head last summer at my husband's grandmother's funeral. His dad got upset with me at the service and, in front of the entire family, said I would never be a part of their family. He went on to say I was a mental case and would raise a dimented son. My husband confronted him about his comments a little later and he denied he ever said it, called my husband a liar & blamed me for making up the entire thing. It's amazing considering my husband was right there when he said it. We had been trying to maintain a relationship with them all these years, up to this point. We haven't spoken in just over a year. We had to make a decision that was best for us and our son. A relationship with such negative people - who obviously will never respect my role in their son's life - is not good for any of us. I think it's harder on me than my husband. We are lucky that my parents are very close by and are super supportive. They love my husband and my son unconditionally. For now our focus is keepng our relationship positive and letting our son know that he is the most important thing in our lives.

[Sandra]

Kristen, it is clear you love your children fiercely and you are one hell of a mother.

I don't think that having a good parent results in being a good parent. I too am a living example (or so I'd like to think).

I am so sorry that things were left so undone with your dad. It was his loss. Truly

[Angel]

I worry a lot about the effects of my icky relationship with my father on my children. Thank you for bringing up this topic.

[Tiffany]

My father is an alcoholic who has relationship issues. Never been that involved in my life and makes very little effort to know me or my children. The small amount of my childhood spent at his house involved sexual abuse from his stepson so I finally stopped visiting.

My stepdad is an abusive alcholic who spent almost my entire life beating on my mother, half-brother and myself. He still drinks leaving me wondering if I can continue communication with he and my mother at all.

Example: This past weekend they visited and my stepdad got drunk and decided to start yelling and cursing at my husband at Outback while we were having a family dinner to celebrate my twins 4th bithday. Apparently the drunken voices in his head told him to do it.

Question: When one parent is so determined to be distructive can you cut out both for the sake of your children?

I guess I just feel guilty for cutting my mother out but then again she just feeds into the behavoir by not doing anything about it.

I just don't want to have to start explaining his behavior to my children since they are already beginning to ask questions.

Truly, when is enough....enough?

[Fairlyoddmother]

I grew up in a relatively 'stable' household with involved parents; my husband's parents, though, are giving me gray hairs. It is hard to keep the image of them 'pure' to my children but I am hanging in there. When they are old enough, they can learn the truth.

[GoingCrazy]

What I'd be really interested to hear is how you deal with the situation when the parents just don't get it. They don't get it when they are causing the problem... they believe that the child (even though I am > 30) is the one that is wrong. Especially my mother... she thinks everything she does (and has done) is right and that I am wrong for disagreeing. I've gotten letters, e-mails, phone calls, etc. with some of the craziest things you could imagine being said in them, much not even true. It is impossible to have a conversation with either of my parent's about the situation... One time, I simply said that I wanted to be able to talk to them and let them know when there was a problem between us or when they had done something to upset my wife and I. By the way they responded, you would have thought I had killed their dog. I was "rude" and "disrespectful" and I should "accept them and blow it off because we are all family". It's almost impossible to talk about anything more deep than the weather with them.

[Dr Joshua Coleman]

Hi,

Josh Coleman here, author of When Parents Hurt. I'm greatly looking forward to tonight's podcast, especially in light of people's willingness to speak to the struggles that they've been through. Since I doubt I'll be able to get to everyone's questions tonight, I'm happy to try and answer as many as I can here. Just let me know. Josh
whenparentshurt.com

[Her Bad Mother]

I so need to stay awake for this.

(also? xoxo)

[Erika]

I *have* to make the time to listen to this...

I ran away from home at 16, after years of emotional, physical and sexual abuse. My dad is still an active alcoholic (who apparently has no memory of ever have hit me...despite the photos that I have of the bruises). My mum has BPD, and I suspect, Munchausen's disease by proxy. They now refer to me as their handicapped daughter...because I am living with bipolar disorder and OCD/Anxiety/PTSD.

I would still give anything to hear them tell me that I am good enough. I am still terrified that I might say the wrong thing and lose them. But I know that I have a duty and a right to protect my children from that relationship...that's one of the very good reasons why we immigrated.

How bizarre that I still need their approval and love so much when they did so much to hurt and break me. I have to break this cycle for my daughter and son's sakes. Thank God for a great therapist...

So, in short, i try not to use them as a parenting model except in the loosest sense: I am taking the little details that were good (time spent in the garden, cooking with my mum, hiking with my dad) and trying to pass them on, whilst creating a new and healthy pattern.

Of all the things I have ever done I am absolutely sure that this is the most critical.

[Phoenix]

Well to put it nicely I have father issues. I'll see if I can remember to listen in tonight, because it's a topic that affects me. If not, well...have a good time. ;)

[mommiebear2]

I need to see if I can get in on this tonight. My biological father and mother were divorced when I was two and shortly after, my mom remarried to my stepdad who I know AS my dad. Once in a blue moon my real father will crawl out from under a rock and although he tries very hard there is just too much a gap there for us to be all father/daughter like. Besides, my stepdad has always been Dad to me and it feels odd to call this strange man dad.

My mother is an alcoholic and is mentally/physically abusive. I try to stay way away from her - like 5 states away.

[Scatteredmom]

I don't blog about my estrangement from my family for a few reasons. #1- I just don't want to deal with the fall out of them constantly calling/e-mailing me and #2-I also don't want to be sued. #3-I don't want to publically publish something that Jake could find.

Walking away was the hardest thing I'd ever done. But once I did it, I won't ever go back.

[CPA Mom and Soccer Mom Angela]

I have GOT to remember to listen to this. We are completely estranged from my in-laws (their choice, batshit crazy) and my father disowned me. On my birthday. Good times.

[Heather]

Just a comment? I wrote a blog on it today I'm such an overachiever!

Of course, it isn't MY parents that are estranged. It's my husband's parents. I had an ass-law divorce.

What has always felt odd and unjustifiable in the ass-law divorce is that there wasn't a REAL reason his parents divorced us. There was no alcoholism or abuse on their part, my husband wasn't a trouble child or delinquent. Everything seemed pretty 'normal'. (as if anything is) So when people ask why they disowned us, I feel like they expect horrid stories of abuse. But I got nothing to say other than they are fucked in the head. It's like we don't belong in the estranged from parent club because there is no real reason.

[Heather]

I have not spoken to my father in about two years now and the part I feel worst about is that I mostly feel relief, but I feel equally as bad about fearing he will just reappear some day and the manipulation will start all over. None of my four siblings are in contact with him anymore so it can not be just me. But I was the one he stayed in touch with the longest. He wrote me a letter right before Christmas two years ago explaining that he could no longer work, he had lost his car and his home and while I feel badly for him, he is mentally ill (bi-polar) and he will not take care of himself or stay on his medicine so how can I help him. I spent my childhood tip toeing around him in fear of him and his "moods" and as an adult I refuse to play his games or expose my children to it. It is hard to talk about with people even my husband made me feel like he wasn't that bad and I should lighten up, but unless you have been through it it is hard to explain to someone how it feels as a child to have a mentally unstable parent, one you have no trust or comfort in. As an adult I tried to call him out on the behaviors that made me feel uncomfortable but I always felt like a child again when I was with him and would revert to the same old patterns of excusing his behavior acting like everything was fine. I am always afraid that someday I will see part of him in me and maybe that is why I am so uncomfortable when faced with my father. I think I could write about this all day there is just so much that I have never talked about. The parent child relationship is such an important and essential one in our lives and no one wants to talk about it when it does not work out the way it should. I know I have shame about it even though I know distance from my father is the best thing for my self and my family.

[mothergoosemouse]

This topic is a good one for any parent, no matter how close you are with your own parents. Surrender Dorothy posted a fantastic review today describing how reading this book gave her a new perspective on relating to her own young daughter.

[dana]

I think I need to call in. My father and his mother had an awful relationship due to some of the nasty things my grandmother said about him. For nearly 10 years I wasn't able to contact my grandmother and then she died and I felt horrible.

It's something that haunts me to this day and I pray that I never have to go through it with my own parents.

[Mommy Babble]

I'm definitely going to tune in to this one. My own father died before I was born and my mother was rarely around, leaving me with her mother most often. When she was around she was often abusive and drunk. Now it's a balance of trying too hard not to be her, and finding myself slipping into the known patterns. I'm going to put that book on my list and hopefully get to it soon, it's certainly something I want to read. My mother is still alive, and we have a very limited connection. Mostly only because we ended up living only a few blocks away from each other. I wonder how Dr. Coleman suggests dealing with children who do ont understand why we can't be around grandma like other children can. They always want to know why they can't sleep over, go shopping, or even just go spend the day with her like other kids do with their grandparents.

[Gina]

I wasn't raised by my mother or my father. Dad was only 14 when I was born. They were children and couldn't/didn't want to take care of me. I was raised by my mohter's parents, and grandpa was seriously abusive. I left home at 16, 17, and finally permanantly at 18.

DH's dad is a drunk, so we don't talk to him either.

In my adulthood, I formed a distant relationship with my dad, but I will never speak to my mother. She spent years mentally and physically abusing me anytime I was around her.

I'm raising my son with little or no involvement from parents on either side.

[jo]

My mother and I have a complicated relationship, like most moms and oldest daughters. I now have a delightful 4 month old daughter and I'm terrified that she'll have a similar relationship with me. The main mistake that my mom made with me was that she never showed any real affection for me. She did all the things that "good moms" do: told me she loved me, disciplined me, fed me, clothed me, etc. But she almost never hugged or kissed me, snuggled with me, or showed any great interest in anything I did. I'm trying my best to let my daughter know that even if we end up being very different people, I'll always love her no matter what. Even if she turns out Republican. Heh.

[My Two Dads]

My biological parents divorced when I was 7 and by the time I was 10 they were both remarried. My Dad essentially took on another family and pretty soon I was pushed away. It just wasn't important for them to include me anymore. I was given a calendar marking the dates I was "allowed" to visit. After a few years of this I just decided on my own to stop my visitations. My stepfather gladly stepped in to take on the fatherly role in my life. However, he is an alcholic and I know suffer the emotional scars from living on the "alcoholic roller coaster." Even though I am married and live outside of the house, I am still affected by his continuing alcholism. Recently things with my stepfather have only gotten worse. I am not sure if and when I will ever heal both of these relationships or if I am even willing. I feel as though if I allow them back in my life I am taking a chance that my future children will also have to deal with the ins and outs of "my fathers."

[Courtney]

I am coming from a little different view from other people. My brother has become estranged from our family after his marriage and now has a daughter we have never seen.
This topic is so very emotional for me and i'm glad people are talking about it.
There is my sister and I in our family and we are both very close to my parents. It amazes me how different the perception of our childhood was for each child.
My brother has some psychological issues as well as substance abuse issues which kind of feed each other. It really saddens me the situation especially since I had a son in February and will one day have to try to explain this to him.

[Christine]

Has anyone/everyone read the book Adult Children of Alcoholics? This is the second time in a week that the book has come up and I read it more than a decade ago. It fills in a lot of blanks and certainly reminds you that you're not alone and it's not your shame.

I tell my children every day that there is nothing they can do that will make me not love them.

I do believe however that there is plenty a parent can do to make a child not love them anymore.

[slackermommy]

I'll be there. I'm estranged from my parents which is an ongoing saga for me. I write about it often on my blog and my story is on Motherless under an assumed name. I also have a private blog dealing with adult children of toxic parents. This is such a sensitive topic and many people are in hiding about this issue. For so many there is so much guilt and shame attached. Thank you so much for putting this topic out there.

[Jen]

I am not speaking to my mom right now, I haven't spoken to her since my husband got deployed. This is the first time I have ever stood up to her and demanded better treatment. So far she hasn't called or made any attempts to open, honest, respectful communication. She hasn't seen my daughter since she was 3 days old. Luckily I have a very wonderful super involved Dad and step Mom. Without them I would not be able to be the parent I am, they help me so much and give me so much support. I can't imagine having to do this without them.

[Kellie]

My step-Dad has been in my life since I was 2 (am now 29). He and my Mom divorced in 2002 and he had a lot of anger and hurt toward her and my sister. He hasn't spoken to my sister since 2002 and has never seen his grandson. He and I remained close until my own divorce in 2004. Since then, he has not returned my countless phone calls, letters, cards, e-mails. He doesn't answer the door when I try and visit (even though it's obvious he is home). It's broken my heart and made me angry.

As a result, it's also firmed my decision even more that a parent's "job" is to love their child/ren regardless. Sure, he's hurt that I hurt my ex after seeing what my Mom put him through. But, he's my DAD. It's his JOB to love me.

I now have an 18 month old daughter. He's never seen her, either.

[Mom101]

You remind me of how lucky I am.

[Suburban Oblivion]

I sent you a question at the coolmompicks email. Thank so much for covering this topic.

[AndreAnna]

I see story in my father. Though I have both parents, still married, my father was an alcoholic and was emotionally abusive growing up. He never speaks to his parents, who abondoned him here from Germany at 14. He knew no one here, and they just left him. He was a bad father. For a long time. It was not until my sister had her son and I had my daughter that he got clean, and became a good father. He is desperately trying to make up for lost decades, and I am letting him. It is nice to forgive, and forge forward with a new relationship. I am thankful for this. But I will remember the drinking, the police, and the abuse, and never inflict that on my children. Ever.

[Dawn]

While, thankfully, I haven't had to face this, I see a remarkable difference in the way I parent my children compared to my sister in law, whose mother died when she was just 13, and whose father is now also gone. HUGE difference. It makes me very grateful for having both my parents influence in a good way.

[Henna]

My mother was the least motherly person I know, or knew. She died in 2000 of heartfailure, a condition I am sure she knew about, but did not share with her family and chose not to address. While I respect her as a person, and am empathetic towards the trials she faced in her life, I am trying to mother my son and step son differently. I think about the things I wished I had when I was a kid, and I try to do that thing for my kids, like hug them and tell them I love them and to be proud of themselves. I wish she could have seen my life all 'straightened out' now and met my son, but I try not to dwell on it.
I believe that we as parents have so many more resources to draw upon to help us in parenting and life situations, so I don't blame my mother entirely for her shortcomings. My father has alzheimers and was a good father, but I have found myself in the role reversal and am taking care of him. I feel like I am inventing my own parenting style as I go along with help from the internet, and you guys, and from the family housekeeper who I take notes on kindness from.
And I try not to ramble like this to my kids...